I’m late doing this because frankly after seeing the prelaunch teaser on a blog, I never saw anything else, until a real life event jolted me into searching for a link.
And here it is, the CSA Awareness Month initiative, is back this year with… Okay, I’m still going through the site so I can’t say exactly what’s on it, but go check it out yourself.
And the reason I think all of us parents need to educate ourselves on this topic is that it’s more common than we think. If the testimonies and sharing from last year’s initiative weren’t enough, a chat I had with a friend galvanized me.
There is a scandal brewing in a friend’s building in Mumbai because it was discovered that two boys, aged 8 or 9, had been asking the other children to pull down their pants and touching their private parts. The first reaction of the parents, after they got over the shock of this happening to their children, seemed to be to divide the children into aggressor and victim, the ones who “did it” and the ones “to whom it was done”. Two boys were identified as the main instigators and among them, one who was more rowdy and generally disliked, as more “to blame” while the other it was surmised had been initiated into “all this” by the more rowdy kid.
I pointed out that “this” was more common than she thought. That it was natural and quite common for kids of that age to explore and it’s quite possible that those participating enjoyed it. So it might not necessarily be an aggressor and victim. This does not make the kids bad. What is definitely wrong is forcing someone who doesn’t want to participate to do it.
It was then discovered that one of the boys had inserted a stick into another boy’s rectum. My friend said that even if one accepts that it is natural for kids to explore, inserting something like this could be physically harmful. As kids, they don’t know how far to go. A fair point, I conceded.
Finally, it turned out that one of the boys singled out as an instigator had himself been abused by a young man in the building. I use the term abuse here because it is clear to me than an adult indulging in this behaviour with a child is abuse, because the power dynamics between an adult and a child are too stilted in the favour of one. The boy’s father, who is not around a lot, knows about it and used this to try and excuse his son inserting a stick into another boy’s rectum. Moreover, his son has been seen going alone to the young man, his abuser’s, house in the evenings.
Confession time. I am clear that it is natural for young kids to explore their own and each other’s bodies sexually. I myself participated in such activities when I was around 8 or 9. The only negativity associated with those experiences is the guilt and shame about something I’m not sure I needed to be ashamed about. I am also clear that it is wrong to force someone who doesn’t want to participate to do so.
But my question is about the grey areas:
- While it is natural for kids to do this, how should a parent react when faced with two children who engaged in sexual acts voluntarily with each other? The traditional answer would be that it’s wrong and should be forbidden. My question, though, is why? I’m not completely on board with the idea of allowing children to have a free-for-all sexually but I’m not sure why. I agree that certain acts can be physically dangerous and should be prohibited. But apart from that, is there any other reason why children should be discouraged from this kind of behaviour.
- One of the parents mentioned that when growing up, one of their playmates, an 11-year-old boy “raped” a girl from the slums nearby and was sent to a juvenile centre. If a 11-year-old himself sexually on another child, can it be considered rape? I’m confused because of the age of consent. Statutory rape is when an adult has sex with a minor. But when it’s between two children, even if one is the aggressor, is it still called rape?
I’m not sure if these issues have been explored on the blog. But if they haven’t, maybe it’s fodder for a post by an expert?
I find myself nodding – to the confession, to the questions.
Seeing, touching a bit, out of curiosity – with no force involved – is natural I guess.
Where does one draw the line? Especially since kids seem to do that and more out of curiosity?
I had read about a 9yr old who had been pushing peanuts into her vagina and needed medical intervention to pull them out – something that started out from mere curiosity.
I can only think that along with Good Touch-Bad Touch, parents need to drill it into kids about what kind of things they themselves are not allowed to do.. Pushing things into the rectum/vagina. . Trying to stimulate parts that get all ‘nicely tingly’.. Getting someone else to do it to you, doing it to others etc.
I barely remember being spoken to about these things as a child. Hope parents do it these days.. If not, it is high time they did.
Yes, I am very clear about the need to talk about Good Touch/Bad Touch and the need to warn against pushing things into orifices (because of the obvious physical danger). But the rest of it – trying to stimulate parts that get all ‘nicely tingly’.. Getting someone else to do it to you, doing it to others etc.- why is it wrong in itself?
And from the discussion with my friend, I think parents don’t speak to their kids about this stuff. Well, I think basic sex ed maybe but I don’t think they address it at 8 or 9. But CSA stuff, I don’t think they do.
Why is it wrong in itself? I’m not really sure.. But I feel that crossing over from that to hurting oneself/others by pushing things into orifices can be real quick and natural. Stimulating parts can get kind of addictive – I’m not exactly sure if that is healthy, or if that phase would pass before curiosity overcomes the “do not hurt/force” line.
Plus, there is the hygiene issue to consider too – children are not exactly given to taking conscious care about hygiene.
Gosh its like a line so thin that its difficult to even see it
1.I think basically all kids are curious about their bodies and about others bodies as well.First of all we need to treat the vagina or rectum as any other part of the body. Thats every important to teach kids, thats its a part of your body. Secondly I think after a certain age lets say 6 or 7 (am not sure!) or so, we need to tell kids that its better not to let anyone else except your parents touch you in your private parts because things may always not seem as they are and they may get hurt in the process. and Vice versa you dont touch anyone’s private parts because you may hurt them in the process. Another thing which I think is important is open communication. You should tell your kids that no matter what, if you are curious, ask me first. Thats the only way to encourage them from exploring other children’s body parts.
These are the only things I feel can prevent kids from undergoing sexual acts..but again Bride like you say, its definitely a grey area…my doubt is are the kids doing it out of innocence to figure out what it is about or are they really knowledgable about it..another thing I want to point out is, that I am feeling kids are losing their innocence earlier than we did..I didnt know ANYTHING about sex till I was like 16 and my dad talked to me about it..while I am sure the 10 year old in my building is very knowledgable about it (which is not bad by the way!)
2. Rape is rape…no matter what age…if anyone forces themselves on anyone, its wrong. Again, I may be too closed minded to actually comment on this without a bais
“These are the only things I feel can prevent kids from undergoing sexual acts.” See, this is why question. Why must we prevent kids from sexual acts? I understand why not with adults because of the power imbalance. And I understand about getting hurt… but there are so many other activities permitted to a child where they might get hurt. It seems to me that sexual acts are prohibited because they are sexual and anything sexual is automatically to be controlled. My question is why? What is the great harm that might come out of kids exploring their own and each others bodies sexually, if they get pleasure out of it. I feel there must be a logical answer but I cannot think what it is.
What you said about innocence… why must kids be innocent? Why must we insist on their innocence? Are they even innocent? Were they ever innocent? I’m sure some kids are and were. Like my friend said “In our time, all this didn’t happen.” I’m testimony to the fact that it did. And I suspect it always did. There is a social taboo against it and that has been effective in cloaking the whole thing behind a wall of secrecy and restricting it, but again, why?
I agree that if there is force involved then it is wrong and if force is involved in a sexual act, it could (should?) be considered rape. But then I wonder what is the point of having a statutory age of consent?
okie I think I agree on the innocence thing…you are right when you say that its because of a social taboo…I never thought of it that ways…see…now you are making me ‘think’ differently
again what you said in the first para about why kids shouldnt be exploring themselves sexually for pleasure – I am not sure why they shouldnt, but my logic tells me they shouldnt…I think there should be a time and age for everything na…I mean then whats the difference between us and other animals? Okie I may be going into a tangent..but thats the only logic I can think of…or may be there is no logic in what I am saying
I think it’s more a gut feeling than logic that tells you it’s wrong. I have that gut feeling too but I still want to know what the logic is because often our gut feelings are influenced by years of social conditioning.
The difference between us and animals is supposed to be:
1. The ability to use language. (Not sure animals don’t have this, just that we haven’t discovered how to understand yet)
2. The ability to form societies and set rules for the good of society and the benefit of the individual. (Animals have this too, as far as I can see). So if refraining from sexual behaviour when young has a social or individual benefit, that’s fine… but what is the benefit is what I’m asking.
3. The capacity for certain higher order thinking.
On a side note, not sure why we are so keen to be different from animals. Seems either like a justification for eating animals or using them in other ways or to bolster our own arrogance as a species. Not saying this with reference to you specifically, but I just question the need to keep reiterating our superiority to animals in general. Gosh, I do question a lot of things.
Very thought provoking questions! And no right answers, either. It seems easier to accept an adolescent’s hormone driven urges. I do remember being curious about boys’ anatomy as a young kid, since i had no younger cousins at that point, and yet being quite disgusted when a boy on our school bus tried to show us his private parts.
I think a little research on this is required! Will get back to you when I’m done.
“I do remember being curious about boys’ anatomy as a young kid, since i had no younger cousins at that point, and yet being quite disgusted when a boy on our school bus tried to show us his private parts.”
Yeah, I think it is important to stress that just because a child may get pleasure out of some kinds of sexual exploration with another child does not mean he or she would want to do this with anyone at anytime. I guess the same rules as adults apply – just because one is turned on and willing to have a sexual relationship with one man doesn’t mean it’s a free for all. Which is why I think adult-child sexual activity is such a no-no… because of the power imbalance that would make it very hard for a child to say no.
Not yet researched, but in the context of CSA, I guess it is easier for a parent to tell a child that no one is allowed to touch his private parts barring say, the parents or nanny who bathe and wash him/her, rather than permitting child-to-child explorations which may further confuse the children concerned. And yet, young male and female siblings bathing together seems to be a great way of them learning the differences. Let’s see what the experts have to say!
As a child I remember it being impressed upon me that not only did I have a personal space which nobody was allowed to ‘invade’ without my permission but that I had to respect that everybody else also had their personal spaces. This was when I was 11 or so. Before that I had bathed with my brother and cousins and thought nothing of it. It was always under adult supervision. So, to answer your questions:
1. Yes, children should be discouraged from from such explorations not because in themselves the explorations are wrong but because they often pave the way for hurtful play, at best. So, yes, a little explanation of personal space is never amiss. Even my 5 yr old saw the point when I started talking to him towering over his head. He realised it was uncomfortable and made him antsy. Therefore he understood he was not to do it to his friends.
2. The 11 year old needing counselling, not a juvenile centre.
These are, obviously, my personal opinions.
I completely agree with Sue.
Hmmm…more thinking to do before I put in anything else. Thought provoking questions.
I suppose the answer to why not is that at that age its probably difficult for children to understand how far they can take the pleasure. I think its natural to explore your body and in fact, like you said, I have done the same with cousins and neighborhood girl friend, so I am fairly sure it happens and I don’t think I turned out any worse for it. But in the current culture, I think maybe kids get to view a lot of violence and uncensored information. And while I am all for making them partake in a healthy discussion, I do feel that as children they might not quite grasp the boundaries. I don’t mean innocence at all. I honestly think kids aren’t thaaat innocent as they are made out to be. So I guess what I am saying is exploring of your own body seems as natural to me as any other part of growing up, but the parents role is probably in telling their kid not to push or force themselves on someone else. This might sound very unconventional, but well, such is life and ‘progress’–is that the right word?
Thanks all for the openminded discussion. As I said, while I’m clear that adult-child sexual activity is a no-no as is forcing sexual activity on anyone, even a peer, I was trying to understand why child-child sexual activity should be forbidden. So the far the suggestions seem to be:
1. The boundaries issue. There seem to be 2 concerns here:
a. That kids might not be able to judge how far to go and end up injuring themselves. Would it not be possible to tell kids not to insert things into places that might end up injuring themselves? For example, there are other orifices which kids seem to have a penchant for inserting things into… peanuts can go into noses and ears too and we’ve had quite a few cases of kids inserting erasers into their noses. One simply impresses on kids the importance of not doing said insertion because it would be hard to extract. One does not prohibit touching the nose or playing with erasers.
b. That kids might not be able to judge the line they cross when they are forcing/hurting another kid. Again, there is a lot of play that could get into the area of hurting other kids about we don’t prohibit that. Instead we explain rules and expect them to be followed. For example, the very fact of two kids on a slide could be recipe for serious injury if one pushes the other. But we don’t prohibit kids on slides. We just set rules and with 8-year-olds we’re not always around to supervise either. Another example is that kids are often sent to martial arts classes quite young. They are taught to fight, to push, to wrestle. Yet, they are expected to know when to engage in this and when not to. So, can’t similar rules be set for kids and sexual activity?
So for the boundaries argument, I’m not entirely convinced that it cannot be solved with just setting rules and explaining them. So if Su’s 5-year-old could get the point about respecting personal space, he should be able to get it in all respects, even the sexual.
I could see a few rules that could be set:
1. Don’t let ANYONE touch you anywhere you don’t want them to. Tell them off or call your parents if they are.
2. Don’t touch anyone where they don’t want to be touched.
3. Don’t insert anything into any holes on your body because you might hurt yourself badly.
Would this be too confusing? It actually seems simpler than explaining why certain parts of the body are “private” (I’m not even sure myself why they are or should be) and who should touch and who not.
2. The hygiene issue. This one I’m not really convinced off. If we were to stop kids from doing things on this count, there are so many other things that would need to be stopped. Kids ever eating with their own hands for example.
3. That this kind of activity might get kind of addictive and that’s not healthy. This one I find the most convincing. That sexual activity might become like chocolate or television and therefore needs an adult to regulate it so that it doesn’t overtake their lives.
4. I also think that one of the reasons it has been historically prohibited is for the same reason that premarital sex was. That a pregnancy resulting out of this would be downright dangerous and a child being born very complicated socially and thus the entire act needed to be controlled. Children are too young for contraception or to be able to bear children and therefore should not be engaging in activities that could lead to that even if their bodies are prompting them to. This sounds kind of churchy to me but I guess it makes some sense
I’d still love to hear from an expert, or anyone else, if there could be other reasons. I’ve always been a but-why child and I guess I haven’t outgrown that habit.
Finally, what I’ve taken from this discussion is the importance of impressing on our children not just how to protect their own bodies but how to respect others. I feel like a lot of the discussion around CSA sees the child as a victim but rarely is possibility of the child being the aggressor discussed.
I would want to reply to your question of ‘why set an age limit?’ Since my answer started becoming too long, I’ve made it into a post linking to this one. Hope it makes sense.
http://arightowrite.blogspot.in/2012/04/answer-to-question-why-set-age-limits.html
Thanks Sandhya. Hoping over to read your post.
I haven’t read all the comments here yet (GBM is on a feeding spree), but wanted to share my thoughts on this. Have you read The Kite runner? There is a similar incident (the pivotal incident, in fact) in the book. A bunch of children sodomize another child. When I read the book, there was no question at all in my mind that the bunch deserved punishment because they were violating another child and were aware that what they were doing was wrong. It is bullying of a sexual kind and though a child perpetrator may not be as aware as an adult one, I think abuse should still be treated as abuse. Maybe the degree of punishment can vary.
As far as exploration goes, even babies and very young children are known to masturbate without knowing what they are doing exactly. They just know that touching their genitals gives them a feeling of pleasure and they don’t see why they shouldn’t explore. And yes, children explore each other’s bodies and I think this is innocent, even though it is sexual. Innocence is not ignorance and really, there is no way to actually set age-based rules for an issue like this. Children reach sexual awareness and maturity at different ages and it is natural for them to want to know more and explore more. Prohibiting them without giving any explanations only makes them convinced that what they are doing is dirty and yet pleasurable. I know this is a difficult subject to discuss with your child but I think every parent should. I met this feminist professor who told me that till she read books on gender and stuff, she had never experienced an orgasm and did not even know that women could have one. She was married with a child, by the way!! She was taught all her life that sex was only for reproduction and to stay away from it till marriage.
As an aside, there was this NGO that ordered Mayil and then wrote a shocked letter to the publisher on how the book contained ‘inappropriate content’. They had quoted page numbers and all and those ‘dirty’ pages all had references to Mayil’s thoughts and discussions on sex. Was quite funny.
Masturbation was the next question in my mind. As you said, even very young children discover the pleasure in this. What I’m not clear about is as a parent, how to deal with this with my child. Should I just leave him or her to it? Or should I be discouraging this behaviour because… If it’s the latter than I want to know what the “because’ is as I’m not coming up with any good answers.
Pingback: CSA Awareness Month April 2012 – Grey Areas by The Blue bride « CSA Awareness Month
Why shouldn’t kids engage in sexual acts voluntarily…. Good question. I’d say because they wouldn’t know when to stop. Pleasure is pleasure. Today they do it with another 11 year old. Tomorrow they do it with a 19 year old. And then a 27 year old tries something with them and they don’t know where to draw the line or what their rights are. To say nothing of the fact that yes, you can be emotionally and physically hurt while experimenting. You don’t understand the consequences. You could end up pregnant. A lot of this I’d put in the same category as driving or drinking. You’re just not old enough or mature enough to handle this or know what to do when things go to hell in a hand basket.
Also, I asked the boss. And she wrote down her explanation. I think I agree with her. http://arightowrite.blogspot.in/2012/04/answer-to-question-why-set-age-limits.html
I’m not so convinced about the ‘don’t know where to stop’ because there are many things that fall into this category but we manage to impress rules on our kids about these things.
But good point on how it might be confusing to say it’s okay with kids of your age, but not with older kids. It does bring to my mind the question of masturbation though. Here this danger of being confused about age would not exist nor would the danger of pushing another kid into something they didn’t want to do.
I like your drinking or driving analogy.
So tell me what other things fall in this category. I ran a list through my head and the only things my kids are currently allowed, are things that don’t. Admittedly one never knows when one hits that stage, but they still aren’t allowed a lot of stuff, including being in the kitchen if I am not there. Even if I am there, they aren’t allowed near the gas counter, they aren’t allowed to touch knives… etc. So as far as I know, there is nothing they are allowed right now that will go down a slipper slope.
That might change with age.
That’s exactly what I mean, actually. Stuff like being in the kitchen is as likely as to result in injury but we manage to impress on kids the need to be careful. So is playing rough or taking a self-defense class – they learn where to draw the line. My point is that you can teach kids where to draw a line and what to avoid because it can lead to injury. So why should it be any different in case of sexual exploration? Why can’t we set the limits for that rather than banning it altogether on the grounds that it might get dangerous?
“I could see a few rules that could be set:
1. Don’t let ANYONE touch you anywhere you don’t want them to. Tell them off or call your parents if they are.
2. Don’t touch anyone where they don’t want to be touched.
3. Don’t insert anything into any holes on your body because you might hurt yourself badly.
Would this be too confusing? It actually seems simpler than explaining why certain parts of the body are “private” (I’m not even sure myself why they are or should be) and who should touch and who not”
—
the issue with this reasoning is kids may think it’s as okay to ask to see somebody’s private parts or to flash them, as it’s to offer them a hand to shake. (you’re not doing anything forcibly, right?)
and why’s that so wrong? because it’s not okay as an adult – and the kids today will be adults tomorrow. when exactly do they crossover? there isn’t an appropriate age?
in my view, some of the things which are expected of adults need to be taught early.
—
private parts are just that – private. one doesnt get scarred if somebody shakes their hand forcibly – quite the opposite if it’s done to private parts. i dont see an issue teaching this to kids early on.
—
yes, some of us indulged in this sort of play (sexual?) when we were kids (you did, so did I). but it was done behind closed doors, and i’d expect that to continue. if open doors policy is okay for kids, why’s it not okay for mommy and daddy? i dont think it’s just social conditioning. and if it is indeed, then the social conditioning is much more basic than just seeing it as “not on” for kids – it’s for the act – adults do this in private, so should kids.
i think it’s ok for them to mutually explore their and others’ bodies as long as they know they’re doing something which is indeed private, should not be done to everybody, should never be forced on others. my job as a parent would be to avoid making this addictive to the extent it interferes/takes them away from regular play and other things.
“i think it’s ok for them to mutually explore their and others’ bodies as long as they know they’re doing something which is indeed private, should not be done to everybody, should never be forced on others. my job as a parent would be to avoid making this addictive to the extent it interferes/takes them away from regular play and other things.”
I definitely agree with this. You seem to be saying the same thing that I am saying except that you’re stressing that this activity should be private, which is a good point.
As to why private parts are private, that’s another whole issue for debate I guess. I understand why certains acts would be private, but parts of the body… not sure. Accepted that they are and we conform, but that’s not a good enough reason for me.
Hey.
When I was a kid(3rd-4th std) I vividly remember these 2 kids, a girl and a boy, younger than me in my building.
These two would, let’s say, ‘do’ things together. I don’t know how far they went with it as they would always hide behind the staircase. But I have seen them look and touch each other’s bodies(I was a curious kid, so I peeked). I never bothered myself with it, neither went and told any adult.
Now after reading the questions that you have raised, I thought about it. These kids never played with us unless an adult was around. The minute the adult left, they’d run under the stairs. They never seemed to have enough, it went on until I lived there – which was another 2 years. Obviously, they did not have friends at all because they would not play with anybody else. They were the youngest in the group and hence had no more kids looking up to them and following the pattern and we older children were too busy playing skipping to sit try what they did.
I still can’t say if those kids missed out on a good childhood, I can only say that they missed out on an active childhood. Which they would even if they played video games. And I dont know them as adults, so I can’t say if their acts had a bearing on them.
Yes, I think the addictive nature of this activity could be a concern. But as you said, so it is with video games, but somehow video games don’t elicit the same kind of widespread taboo as sexual activity in kids does. Many parents allow their kids some screen time. I also think – from personal experience – that this kind of behaviour is a phase and kids grow out of it.
It’s a tough one, this issue.
Bride – I really like your complex reflections on the subjects of innocence and why we are so obsessed with it. As well as your nuanced understanding of child sexuality and the possibility of negotiating it rather than shutting down the possibility of its existence.
Thanks Surya. You kind of encapsulated what I was trying to do better than I could