In one of my more lucid moments during labour for Benji, I remember screaming at V: “My God, you and Benji better buy me diamonds for this.” Later, I reconsidered. Benji had not asked to be born or for his mother to suffer while bringing him into the world. But V was a different matter. Both V and I wanted and loved our children. But only I paid the physical price of carrying, birthing and breastfeeding him. And what a price it was.
V, who witnessed what I went through, I think realised that no amount of support, praise, encouragement, love (which he did give unstintingly) was going to compensate for the sheer physical price I paid. And so he did acceded to my suggestion that I be paid in cash or its more palatable equivalent – gold.
This idea seems to bother many people. On IHM’s post on “What do you think of romanticisation of men buying jewellery for women”, I shared my very unromantic story – of my husband buying me jewellery in payment for huge job I did for our family.
To explain to those who cannot understand how I can be so transactional, let me first say that in any modern marriage there is a give-and-take from both partners which ideally should even out for the marriage to work. Mostly, it will never completely even out but love overrides that imbalance. But the mutual give-and-take should be more or less fair or the marriage will rock due to underlying resentments.
Traditional marriages were predicated on men being the breadwinner and women being everything else, that ‘everything else’ never quantified or expressed in financial terms, even though it was huge. Because they were never paid for their work, women were always financially vulnerable and socially vulnerable, treated like secondhand class citizens. Many women today find they are unwilling to play this unpaid role of provider of ‘everything else’. Thus, we either go out to work or if we stay at home, and have any sense, we make sure we are compensated financially with assets to our names and the work is acknowledged as work.
In my marriage, my husband is the banker, cook, and handyman. I am the occasional cleaner and home organizer, social instigator and empathetic listener. With regards to childcare, post the early infancy stage which I will deal with later, my husband and I share the duties but I do a bit more in terms of diaper changing, waking up at night, getting on the floor and playing with the kids, going to doctors appointments etc. This is okay by me because my husband does much more than me in terms of regular chores. I must also say that we have helpers for housework and childcare.
The one thing that does not and cannot even out is pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. Many commenters on IHM’s post mentioned that a husband should be supportive and helpful during this time. Hell yes, they should be. That is the bare minimum. But even the greatest support from a husband is only a drop in the ocean of what a woman goes through and what only she can go through.
Let me explain my own situation:
Before pregnancy: I had a prestigious but stressful job. I realised that it was not ideal for carrying a child. I started to look out for more peaceful options and found one, quit my job and took a nine-to-six job. Thankfully, I got a small raise when I switched jobs but I have no promotion prospects and essentially it’s a dead end career wise. But it is best for our family and I’m sticking with it.
Pregnancy:
- Most women in their first trimester will feel severe nausea, puking a couple of times every day. This lasts three months. Three months of waking up and running to the loo with bile burning your throat and filling your mouth. You need to eat to keep the nausea down but most of the food available makes you retch. Just thinking what to eat can drive you nuts. In my case, I needed to go to work. So the added joy of the commute while nauseous, retching in the work loo after someone peed in it, and trying to be quiet while doing so. You cannot be 100% at work when you are trying not to puke and your boss knows it. You can probably forget a promotion or a raise that year. During my pregnancy, I was bleeding slightly. It was terrifying every time I saw blood on my underwear. I also had a vaginal infection. I had to take antibiotics. Antibiotics make me sick at the best of times and now I was already battling pregnancy nausea. I kept them down not for my own sake but the sake of my baby. The prenatal vitamin also made me sick. Since it was more important to take the antibiotic, I stopped the vitamin. This meant that for three months my body leached nutrients from my bones, my blood, wherever it could get them. Please note that a huge number of women suffer from osteoporosis later in life, where essentially their bones break, due to to exactly what I did.
Then, you stop puking – hopefully… some continue for nine months, and start feeling ravenous and eating all the time. You gain weight. You carry that bulk everywhere. You can’t stand for long and you can’t do all that standing work at events you would otherwise do. You can’t attend after-work networking dinners, you’re too tired. Your bosses understand. But yeah, your career suffers. Finally, you go on 3 months or more of maternity leave which though legally required, no employer cherishes. I got pregnant with my second child soon after my first. So I have had 3 years of career on standstill, if not more, since my kids are still young.
This is my story, other women have it so much worse, healthwise and careerwise during pregnancy.
So just during pregnancy there is a physical cost and a financial one that can be quantified. And it is a cost only we can pay. My husband could cook for me, rub my back after I puked, withhold his irritation when I smelled something he just cooked and ran to the loo, etc. but he could not do the puking, the lying on the bathroom floor with puke coming out of one end and blood the other, terrified that I was going to have a miscarriage, the telling my boss I can’t come to work yet again. Only I could do that.
- Childbirth: No man, I’d wager, has ever been asked to go through that kind of pain without a painkiller. My husband was present at the birth of my son and he saw what it entails. There is nothing romantic about it for most women. My husband was my rock during labour, I could not have done it without him, his support is what I remember when I am furious with him about something else. But at the end of the day, only I could give birth to our child. Only I could go through that physical hell. And only I could go through it all over again, knowing what was coming, for our second.
My husband was keen that I deliver naturally and possibly without an epidural, and I did it. We both got a healthy child but he got a child without going through what I did.
For our second child, because I didn’t want to add to my husband’s financial stress at a tough time in his job, I chose to deliver public. I saved our family at least $100,000 by sacrificing my own comfort. My husband acknowledges that – now that we are more secure financially, that $100,000 is mine.
I had a c-section and that was brutal in its own way. On the very first day itself, I got off my bed, nothwithstanding the searing pain of the HUGE, thanks to junior public hospital doctors, wound on my stomach and hobbled to the loo so I could be mobile to breastfeed our child. And continued to get off that bed, gasping and swearing in pain, day and night every four hours to the nursery to breastfeed my baby and then rocked the baby to sleep.
And four days after I gave birth, with cut still burning and all, I slept on a pull-out couch next to my baby in the pediatrics ward so I could breastfeed her. Only I could do that because only I could breastfeed her. Breastfeeding was not only my idea though, my husband was also very keen on it.
3. Breastfeeding: Only I had to be at the beck and call of the baby, could never roll over and say I’m sleepy, had to bear the stress of being the source of food, had to deal with bleeding and cracked nipples. At the most my husband could wake up and sit with me, or change a diaper, which frankly is a cakewalk compared to breastfeeding, especially breastfeeding my babies that had reflux and colic and wouldn’t go back to sleep and had to be rocked endlessly. Only I had to stress that everything I put in my mouth could be irritating my babies’ intestines and so go on a punishing diet, even while breastfeeding. Only I will pay the physical cost of doing that. Only I have to sneak off twice a day to pump in some godforsaken toilet at work, cringing every time someone comes in and wonders what that whirring noise is and lurking outside the pantry to sneak my breastmilk into a freezer.
Why must all this be free of charge? Why is love and fresh air deemed good enough for such hard work, literally blood, sweat and tears?
Many people are comfortable and advocate this idea that the work of homemakers be acknowledged and moreover quantified and compensated for. Heartfelt appreciation, gratitude for sacrifices made, comments on how only women can, etc. are well and good but financial security is also important. But somehow childbirth, which ironically is called the most honest name of “labour”, and entails such a huge physical, emotional and financial cost that biology deems only women can bear, still seems to fall into the heartfelt-thanks-and-support-should-be-enough category. Because I suppose the idea of a baby is too romantic for money to come into the picture. And we are supposed to be so happy that we have a baby that we forget the price we paid – traditionally this was the answer women were supposed to give when they were asked how painfull their labour was. Besides, you have a baby at the end of it, so you got your reward right? Um, yes, and so does the woman who keeps a lovely home but she would still like something more than “such a lovely home dear” at the end of it. And so does my husband, who didn’t pay half this price.
So I would say, if pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding was a lovely and enjoyable experience for you and you see negligible cost to your financial situation, health etc. as a result, write it off. Or if it was hard but you think you have enough assets to your name to write it off as a gift to your husband, fine. Or if your husband makes so much other contributions to your marriage that the labour that only you could go in pregnancy and childbirth would even out, fine again.
But otherwise, I suggest you think more closely about why we are so ready to perform this labour, which will always be a labour of love even if we are paid for it, for free.
Dear all, thanks for a frank and largely polite discussion. I’ve now closed comments because I have too much on hand to do and cannot keep track of comments anymore.
Bride, excellent article! I had almost forgotten what pregnancy and child-birth were like. Your detailed description brought back all the memories. It sure wasn’t easy.
I guess time is a great healer though I remember the pain of my first birth – natural – much more poignantly than the second (c-section, that’s subject of another which-is-worse post I guess). Also, a lot of stuff we do as women which is so bloody (literally) painful is just seen to be natural and doesn’t get enough credit. Or we are supposed to be content with well-meaning praise etc. But for me, this was too huge, too much.
Reblogged this on The Life and Times of an Indian Homemaker.
Thanks IHM.
Wonderful!
Exactly what I wanted to say whhen people were piling on in that post, but you said it so much better!
I guess I’m not surprised at how uncomfortable people are with the idea. Ten years ago and probably even now, the same arguments were made for homemakers not being paid or compensated for their contributions.
Hi, Just posted this comment on IHM’s reblog of your post-
IHM, I agree with what the Bride says about the inequality in terms of both the physicality of the pregnancy and birthing process and also the fact that the woman’s profession suffers in a way that the man’s doesn’t. However, this is not something imposed by the guy. It is NOT the same as household work not being seen in quantifiable financial terms. Making the guy pay for the woman’s extreme discomfort in child bearing/ birthing through money does not, for me, make it equal or shared. In fact, it reduces the immensity of the act and its repercussions.
Also at the beginning of her post, she has written that she reconsidered making the child pay as he had not asked to be born. But the male has not imposed the singular responsibility of pregnancy and birthing upon the woman either.
I too like the idea of an equal share in everything they own etc as you’ve written. And by all means, the woman should buy diamonds etc from these shared resources. I have a problem with the demanding of them as compensation, and I have a bigger problem with the possibility of financial compensation somehow leading the guy to feel absolved from responsibility and the recognition of the inherent inequality of the process (pregnancy/ birthing/ feeding).
———————
My discomfort with the idea of financial compensation was also heightened when this was equated to one commentator demanding to be paid for hosting a dinner for the in-laws. I just can not wrap my head around this.
I love the fact that you had de-romanticised the process of pregnancy, birthing and the aftermath. I do NOT think that there’s anything romantic about having a baby- nor am i saying that the joy of having one should do away with any of this. BUT money does not take away any of this either. I think it runs the risk of allowing men to feel- yes, now the equation has been equalised to a certain extent because I’ve been penalised. Monetary discomfort on paying for jewellery/ etc will not make the equation more balanced.
On a personal note- the spouse got home a massive stone (2 carats) for the anniversary with the very cheesy line “you deserve this”. My only reaction was one of anger- because heck- more than diamonds I deserve responsibilities to be shared on a daily basis. And no- the diamond is not going to get you off the hook- had I kept it, i know that subconsciously he would’ve felt he’s contributed to his ‘share’ in the equation.
Completely agree with Mokapot! Couldn’t have said it any better, but would just like to add that you’ve stated that you quit your prestigious job when you got pregnant and also that you pretty much had two pregnancies back to back. Now, I’m wondering if these dicisions were taken by you and you did what you felt comfortable with or were these obligations? If these were indeed your conscious dicisions, you did what you thought was best and you CANNOT expect to be compensated for that. On the other hand, had these decisions been impressed upon you by your husband, there is much more to him than is elucidated by your post.
The decisions were taken jointly. If one party makes a compromise for the good of the family, I believe it’s okay to request a bit of compensation for the sacrifice. Not for everysacrifice, for ones that one feels are huge.
The job aspect for me personally is small thing because I got a pretty good deal job wise. I mentioned it to elucidate how cumulatively pregnancy can affect a woman financially.
Since it was a joint decision and you knew how difficult the process of creating an offspring is (for women at-least) maybe you could’ve decided to properly space the two pregnancies. Also although Nature’s burden of pregnancy is definitely biased against women, the nine to six job compromise could’ve (should’ve?) been taken by your husband. And even though that still wouldn’t neutralize the bias I think that should be a prerequisite before we can even start quantifying a mother’s pain in monetary terms. Because otherwise it feels more like a bribe to weasel out of ones responsibility.
Swarup, whether I spaced out the pregnancies or not, they would remain as onerous. What I went through is a fact of most pregnancies not because I had two back to back. If you must know, the second one was an accident – I am very happy with my baby girl now, though.
I don’t see how my husband having a nine-to-six job (though he does have one) would make a difference. He is not carrying the baby after all.
I don’t see why any kind of monetary compensation is seen as a bribe. It’s just compensation. How can he weasel out of a job he cannot do – that is giving birth and breastfeeding? He is only compensating me for that.
But spacing pregnancies does ease some of the postnatal dilemma. And knowing that your second pregnancy was an unplanned one (i.e. your husband didn’t want to put you through it), doesn’t the same reasoning that applies Benji apply to your husband as well?
The nine to six job I brought up because you stated your quitting a regular prestigious job for a more comfortable (albeit dead-end) one so as to be more available to your kid as part of your cumulative ‘sacrifice’. But the fact that the father can (and has in this case) made the same ‘sacrifice’ renders that defense impotent.
Ums, what post-natal dilemma?
“doesn’t the same reasoning that applies Benji apply to your husband as well?” Not quite sure I understand you. My second pregnancy was unplanned but it was joint decision to go ahead with it. Thus, the same logic that applies to the first pregnancy applies to this one. In both cases, we both wanted to have the baby, in both cases both my husband and I would rathered I didn’t have to go through the physical trauma but I did etc.
I am in agreement that husband should think about letting their career take a backseat and stressing the childcare instead of assuming it should always be the wife to do so, if that was the point you were making with the 9-to-6 question. However, physically this only becomes possible after the baby is born and the wife stops breastfeeding. I was of the opinion that it would be better for me not to be stressed out or overtired during pregnancy. There is now research apparently that stress during pregnancy has no effect on the foetus. But I know that when I was stressed out – over my weight gain thanks to overeager nurses here – I actually started getting faux contractions so I believe it does have an effect and I’m glad I had a less tiring job.
By post-natal dilemma I mean what follows after a child is delivered (waking nights, emotional roller-coaster, changing nappies, feeding, etc, etc) and parents definitely need a reasonable amount of time to recover and be refreshed after going through one round of that.
“doesn’t the same reasoning that applies (to) Benji apply to your husband as well?” would mean that as the pregnancy was not planned and since neither of you can be held responsible for the conception and ensuing pain/discomfort, would demanding compensation against something that was not asked of you make any sense?
Swarup, the pregnancy was not planned but the choice to go along with it was. So I don’t see it as any different.
With regard to the second child and being refreshed, I had this discussion after the first child and there was no second child in the picture. I believe that if I had only one child, my stance would be the same.
@Mokapot.
Thanks for reposting your comment here. I feel more comfortable having this discussion in my own space.
I agree that the inequality in biology is not imposed by the guy. But I don’t agree that for this reason, he gets a free ride on this. I also do not see asking for compensation as punishment. It is just an attempt to get my singular contribution quantified and valued in concrete terms. You are right that money does not make it equal. If I had to value what I went through in monetary terms the figure would be too high for my husband. But it could redress the imbalance a little bit. Nor does it need to be only about money. The compensation could be something else important – one commenter suggested she would like sole discretion on naming the child. That can be negotiated, like everything else in a marriage. I am only arguing that it be valued at more than just the emotional level (which I think is a given and would and should happen in any loving relationship).
I do not see how compensation reduces the immensity of it at all. Nothing can reduce it’s immensity. Nor do I see the possibility of seeing this as a pay-out absolving him from effort that he can put in forever and ever. I think the use of being very cut and dried about this is to actually prevent such an eventuality. You are compensating me (somewhat) for this and exactly this. For the rest of the childcare etc. we will discuss how it is to be shared. I think if we go the route I have, we are capable of being assertive of our rights further down the line as well. Had my husband given me a diamond and sat on his ass watching TV while I struggled with the baby, that would have been unacceptable to me. And he did not. I would not allow that to happen. Men may want to feel that they have done their duty with a one-time payout but we can always enlighten them otherwise. Luckily, I never needed to.
With regard to the comment on the dinner party, I sense there would be a background to it. Maybe the commenters in-laws were terrible to her so throwing this dinner party is a huge favour that means a lot to her husband and nothing he can do with his actions in the marriage would compensate better than an honest cash payout. I’m only speculating here so won’t get into that comment again. For me, I can let go off visiting my in-laws even though theyr’e not the nicest. But what I went through to give birth is a biggie.
Hat’s off. I shall throw this at all whiny demanding men who say but don’t you want to see how OUR baby will be?
Haha that’s one way of looking at it but I have to admit there is a genetic thrill involved, which is probably why we go through this in the first place.
Gosh you have been through a crazy time na…big hugs…and now the actual post…will get back to you about my thoughts on this one
R’s Mom, not as crazy as you from what I know. But would love to hear your thoughts.
Okay Bride, I read through your post again (I am really getting slow now a days!) and then read through the comments section on IHM’s blog..
1. you accepting a gift from V doesnt make you a lesser mom
2. While some may argue that you GOT your child what more do you want…well nothing, but if the spouse wants to gift his wife something special for the child birth, why not?
3. I wont judge you because you ‘asked’ V for a gift…its better than cursing him for having sex with you at the first place while you were concieving!
4. While some people may not consider money/gold/jewellery as an equivalent to ‘having’ a child, I feel personally, its better than getting nothing
5. Again, while ‘you’ got the jewellery from V, its going to be useful for all in the family right (I know the logic is a bit convulated, but still) at the end of the day, its an investment FOR the family, just in the name of gifting it to your wife for giving him a wonderful baby!
6. I have never asked RD for anything before R or after R..with my horrible delivery, and post partum problems, HE gave me so much more apart from the emotional and physical support…
At the end of the day, I think it depends on the individual persepctive..some may think it as cheapening of the relation between the spouses or between the mother and child, while some may think it as an excellent idea to thank your wife for what she did..people like me sit on the fence and just think ah! well, if not anything, its an investment for the family
Again, big hugs to you Bride..I admire what you have gone through both for Benji and Mimi
R’s mom, I’m losing track of comments because WordPress is so weird some comments just get published without coming up in notifications.
You always have the sweetest and nicest way of putting things. Couple of clarifications to your points:
2. V would probably (maybe?) got me something anyway. We are normally not big on gifting in our household. Or we gift at very atypical times. Anyway, this time I specifically asked for it. Hence it may be seen as less a gift than a payment, which is fine my me.
4. “its better than nothing”. exactly.
5. Not sure it’s useful for the family. It’s mine. Like the cash and gold gifts people gave for my kids when they are born, it’s theirs. I will not touch it. Of course, if our family was in dire straits, I would not hesitate to sell that gold (i.e. my gold, not my kids’ gifts) for the sake of the family.
I will disagree vehemently that it cheapens the relationship. But I will say that it need not be monetary, if people feel better about that. I think money has its uses though.
Brilliant post, Bride. No words. Take a bow!
Yeah, I’m Ok with people disagreeing with me but there has to be more to it than “it feels weird” or “it;s not nice” or “how can you think that about your baby”.
Hi, excellent article on a topic very close to my heart. I couldn’t agree more. Women do need to seek and get financial compensation for all the blood, sweat and pain they go through raising a family. It’s been too long that this free work has been taken for granted and not valued the way it should be.
I find that there is more acceptance of women being compensated for the later role of childcare but this early part dictated by biology seems sacrosanct because it is “natural” I suppose.
I could kiss you for this post.
My pregnancy was easy, labour was average, but even an average labour is more pain than you every even dreamt about before. What really killed me was breastfeeding. And not being able to sleep. The first 6 weeks after my daughter was born were the toughest and yes I will say it, worst 6 weeks of my life. And yes, I bore 90% of the burden. Even if I leave out pregnancy and labour, the diamond solitaire I demanded and got, is not enough for those 6 weeks.
Though my boss is understanding, though my work is flexible, I am the one who has put her career on the slow track. And it will get even slower if we have a second baby, which we most probably will. I am the one who can’t pack up and leave for a friend’s wedding because my baby won’t sleep without me.
I don’t need to say that of course I love my baby and she was worth all that I went through and much more. I don’t need to say that of course my husband supported me as much as he could. I am and will be the one who pays the maximum price for the joy of having your own child.
“I am and will be the one who pays the maximum price for the joy of having your own child.” This. No matter how much a couple tries to work it out so that the woman gets the fairest deal possible, there are some things biologically only she can do. I don’t know why people are so uncomfortable with the idea that something can be done to offset that a bit. I don’t believe it can ever be completely offset, but that doesn’t mean some small attempt shouldn’t be made.
I am and will be the one who pays the maximum price for the joy of having your own child — totally agree! Its small things like not being able to sleep an hour early at night, simply because your baby is still up and won’t settle with anyone else.
And career is just the elephant in the room, that I personally, like to not think about. Being in the same line of work as my husband and as qualified as him, I cannot think about taking a break or taking it slow… and yet, your baby is so dependent on you that your heart breaks… Aah, the woes of being a woman!
I read this blog post.
Frankly, I don’t know what to say now.
I need time to think over.
I will comment later at Ihm’s blog, where this post has been featured.
This was “brave” writing indeed.
It is not pleasant to read, but I don’t suppose you intended pleasing your readers.
Yes, you have provoked some serious thinking, in my mind.
I plan to raise this topic in conversations with close friends and relatives.
I would be curious to know how these views of yours will be received by others.
Regards
GV
Thanks for your non-judgmental comment GV. I gave my stance a lot of thought before I adopted it. The point of this post was just to make people think and yeah, I deliberately spelled out some of the gory details – and they are only some… there are so many more, and they are very much normal, this is what every woman goes through and more to give birth. I think we need to think about why the idea of a woman being compensated for this labour is unpalatable but one being compensated for housework is not.
I don’t plan to comment further on the issue on IHM’s blog but I look forward to reading your thoughts there later.
I will post my comment right here on your blog.
IHM’s has re blogged your post and that has helped in increasing readership.
I myself read this only due to this re blogging.
Since it is your post, it is more appropriate that I post my comment here.
I will post a copy of my comment at IHM’s blog too.
Your post is definitely “provocative”.
It has stirred me up and I am having conflicting thoughts in my mind.
My first impulse was to disagree rather strongly with you.
But having re read your post and the comments so far here and at IHM’s blog, and also having put myself in your position, I see some merit in some of your arguments but the thought churning is still going on in my mind and the last word on this will take some time.
I will most definitely post my views before the end of the day.
I need time not merely to compose a readable comment, but even to decide what my comment is going to be!
Right now I don’t know what I am going to say!
Regards
GV
Well done Bride in putting forth what in reality a woman goes through and how its high time to not take this for granted…
Thanks Jas. Sometimes the easiest way to make people realise at least the start of the value of something is to quantify it in unsentimental terms.
Having been through this recently, it’s all coming back to me now. I must say though, touchwood, I had a fairly easy pregnancy. Work-wise, it was my most hectic year so far and I didn’t believe in not giving 100% to it. So, that meant working midnights for closing transactions during my 6th month — which, in turn meant erratic eating schedules, food provided by the client on their timelines. All of this led my growth scan to show a low-growth profile baby. Which, obviously, freaked me and everyone else out. I started taking more care from that point on, but one of the things that I felt emphatically during my pregnancy was loneliness. There were so many people around me and all of them, super caring and supportive (including my husband)… but I felt utterly alone in my concern for my unborn baby. Why is there no or less movement during a certain day, why the growth scan took so long, are all the scan parameters normal or not? I went crazy googling, just to comfort myself.
I did take an epidural during labor — which my husband was totally supportive of. Although, I don’t think I gave him an option to opine on that. Given that he was not going through the physical stress of it, there was no way he could tell me to go through labor without pain relief.
On the other side of pregnancy (or the 4th trimester, as some call it), I did totally stress out. Breastfeeding is a monster — and it just haunted me all day and night. And as much as my husband could sympathize, I was the one who was on a 24 hour duty. My body ached, I developed a stiff neck, nipples were cracked… and my baby would just cry all the time. Believe me, I can relate to your endless rocking story! And I was just so pissed off with nature, by this time.
But, I have not really asked my husband for a compensation. Truth be told — never entered my mind, even though I don’t believe in “It’s my duty as a woman to produce a child, etc etc”. Mine is an equal marriage — S does as much or more than me for the home, for the family. He takes care of R in equal measure barring what he cannot. So, I have never really thought about it. The only compensation which I should have demanded was, or will next time around — is sole authority and right to choose the name (a la your older post) for my baby.
Oh, and I also wrote on this — http://alittlehighonlife.blogspot.in/2012/02/beginning-of-beautiful-relationship.html
A, I also know women who pushed themselves to give 100% at work and often people point to women like you in a if-they-can-why-can’t-you way. What I always say is that those who manage to be 100% at work are putting in a HUGE effort and it’s not to be taken for granted or expected of everyone.
You are so right about the loneliness. Especially in new motherhood, that anxiety when your child is unwell or crying. The googling so you don’t come across as a freak and a worrier.
I’m not advocating that every woman demand compensation from her spouse. But it’s something to think about. And the compensation need not be financial either. Choice of name (in my case last name) would have been a big one for me.
Oh, and totally relate to the pumping at work problem — shady washrooms, the whirring of the pump, the dreaded 2.5 hr interval to get work done in… list goes on!
Excellent stuff Bride. We are still planning and I’d love to get something in return too. But the husband says we’ll have it if you are ready for all that. Else he’s fine with no child if I’m scared to go through pain or not ready to put my career on backburner. Hmmppff!
How do I deal with that now?
Ugh typed out long response, changed windows and it disappears.
I think each marriage might have to work it out differently. Like if your husband is truly indifferent to having a child and you are the enthu one, maybe his offering support and some help in child-rearing would be compensation enough? You would have to see if you are okay with that or if it would be too hard for you to go it almost single-handedly.
On another post, a commenter mentioned that she was the indifferent one and her husband begged her to get pregnant so she did but then he took over completely while the babies were born and she only did the fun stuff. And that worked for them because they were meeting somewhat halfway.
I don’t think compensation need only be financial either. But financial is one way to go because it’s very concrete.
He is enthu too but is putting my wishes/comforts first, so I don’t end up suffering too much than I can handle. Though I’m thinking that being the decision maker, it’ll put most of the responsibilities on me. I’m sure he’d share them too but it’ll mostly be me. And yes, I didn’t mean only financial support, but something to that effect. I can only wait and watch
In which case, I’d say, something big in compensation might do the trick for you guys. More so in the case of someone like you who is ordinarily the doer in the relationship. If you are ordinarily the doer, then you will be 100 times more so as a new mum.
I am guessing so. Followed your blog. You are my person of the day for today
You inspired me no end with your witty writing lady.
I read this post and commented on IHM’s blog. While I disagree with you, I’d like to say this – yay to you for doing what you felt was right.
N will go check out yours and the other comments there later. Well, I came to my decision on this after lots of thought, and it was not an easy thing to say to my husband either but I felt the need to say it.
ditto on n’s comment..
PS – am a big fan of your comments on IHM’s blog
Thanks Sushma…I think agreeing to disagree politely is fine.
Oh and I had both baies with zero pain relief – and seriously cannot over how women are treated like they are after what they go through. The best way to remedy this is to make it mandatory for men to watch their wives/girlfriends giving birth. I know of many men who refuse saying they cannot bear to watch it. I’d say you bleddy well watch it buddy and just be glad you are not going through ti yourself.
Sorry for the gazillion typos.
In theory, I have no problem with this viewpoint. But in practise aren’t your assets jointly owned, anyway? TG and I earn roughly the same amount of money now but even when there was a fairly big difference in our salaries, we considered our respective money to be our collective money. So, if I choose to carry our baby, instead of her, anything I asked for to compensate for all the trauma would just be like dipping into my own money and buying myself something.
Broom, the issue of joint assets is an interesting one and I am not entirely clear about my stance on it. I’d love for someone with more of a head for numbers to take this up and post on it.
My sense is that while most of the assets in a marriage should be shared, it might be fiscally prudent to have some assets in ones individual names. This compensation would be one such.
Another way to look at it would be – even where assets are joint, big ticket purchases are negotiated. Sometimes your partner wants to splurge on something that you really don’t see the need for and which ordinarily you would have vetoed. So this compensation could be one of those splurges.
Excellent post! I know most people would find the idea weird but lets not let that deter us. Most great ideas/norms/ changes were considered weird initially. I agree with every word you say.
A few men say they feel guilty for putting their wives through so much pain but offer to do nothing about it…this is one way to ‘compensate’ and as per me wives should not hesitate to ask for it.
As for me…forget about gifting gold, my ex-husband was busy watching TV while i was in labour. When i asked my ex-MIL to call him over, I got the respnse “woh kya karega aake”! Its been 7 years and I havent been able to get this out of my mind.
” Its been 7 years and I havent been able to get this out of my mind.” I wouldn’t have been able to either. And from this comes the idea that if they are standing by your bedside caring and supporting after, that’s great. I’d say it’s good. Great would be what I got.
Forget about caring, supporting and gifting, the birth of a child is used as yet another excuse to extort gifts fro, the ‘girl’s’ family! Why, oh why, are things so screwed up in India???
Interesting perspective, and yes, quite a storm you have created here and at IHM’s blog
No, I did not ask for payment/compensation for labour and all associated physical discomfort of bearing our kids. Actually, never did it occur that it was a quantifiable thing where he could compensate me in monetary terms. What are diamonds or gold anyway? What happens when one finally obtains them and they sit in the locker? How can that make one feel compensated for the pain? Can it really be compensated?
I was pampered through my pregnancies – both really easy ones as compared to what you have described, but still with their fair share of discomforts. Breastfed my kids for 8/9 months. Daddy gave his 100% – same amounts of sleepless nights, diaper changes, and baby care. Lamaze classes together to begin with and he was by my side – all 36 hours of labour, without any sleep or rest.
We celebrated this important and beautiful milestone in our lives. But never did it occur that it was unfair that I had to bear the pain and he did not. Maybe because of an acceptance of the fact that nature has made women this way. Now a days, we read a lot and prepare a lot for pregnancies. So we know that it is going to be a rough ride. If I did not want to go through it, I could choose not to. I could adopt, or have a surrogate (like someone suggested on IHM’s blog).
Housework and child care – Yes. The partner must pick up his share.
Career – Agree, that I took a backseat in my career, for some period. But I did not feel it was unfair. I wouldnt trade all the time I spent with the kids, witnessed their milestones etc. In that aspect, I think my husband lost out because he couldnt take as much time off as I did, because it did not make financial sense now with a family to support.
Human relationships are more complex cannot really be reduced to an accounting sheet. For example, If I got a gift from the husband -on his own accord, it is to commemorate an important milestone in our lives as partners, it would be cherished, appreciated and remembered fondly. But If I demanded payment for my labour, it might may make the occasion sour, although being a practical person, he may agree and accede. But things wouldn’t be the same. I would not have that…
PoetMamma, struggling to keep up with the comments so forgive me if I sound abrupt in some of my response.
“Can it really be compensated?” It cannot be fully compensated. It can be offset.
Even if Daddy gives his 100%, his contribution to the whole experience would be at best 20-30% due to biological limitations.
“Maybe because of an acceptance of the fact that nature has made women this way.” One can accept it and still enjoy being compensated for one’s effort, no?
“If I did not want to go through it, I could choose not to. I could adopt, or have a surrogate (like someone suggested on IHM’s blog).” I find it strange that people are ready to jump from have ones child oneself and bear it all onself (with what support Dad can give) or adopt but cannot comprehend the in-between idea of bear-it-oneself-but-have-Dad-up-his-contribution-by-20%-with-what-he-can-do. At the risk of using an imperfect analogy – it’s like taking a job, I mostly like the job (but it’s not perfect- the not-perfect in this case being the process of giving birth not the end result) but would be so much sweeter if HR upped the amount of leave I could take.
“I wouldnt trade all the time I spent with the kids, witnessed their milestones etc.” I am not even speaking of that part. I am speaking of before they are born and the 3 or so months after. We don’t have a choice in trading that if we (ie. both husband and wife) want to have a bioliogical (for want of a better word) child and breastfeed that child. Later on, if you believed the milestones are not worth trading for, that’s a thought out decision and one you had a choice in.
“Human relationships are more complex cannot really be reduced to an accounting sheet.” I think sometimes we need to view it as such. It was only when viewing the division of labour in marriage from economic terms that the vast inequality to women in the traditional role came to fore. I am trying to point out something similar in this instance even though this case is constrained by biology. Even so, I think women can get a fairer deal.
Most of the time in a marriage we don’t have a chart saying you-did-this, I did-this. But division of labour is one of the biggest danger zones in a modern marriage. For many of us, the equilibrium is reached seamlessly. Things equal out more or less. I feel that this is one area, and I feel being a homemaker is another, where it does not equal out and it’s useful to look at it in unsentimental black and white terms.
“But If I demanded payment for my labour, it might may make the occasion sour,” I admit that it is for this reason that I hesitated to demand cash outright and asked for jewellery which is more palatable. But I made it clear why I wanted it. I also hope that we can come to stage where we can have this discussion openly without it turning sour. Kind of like for many stay-at-home mums, a frank discussion and sum to be deposited in their account for spending at their discretion is discussed before they undertake that role.
Poetmamma,
I loved reading your comment.
I am following this discussion with keen interest.
Regards
GV
Came here from IHM’s blog. Interesting read. I applaud ur persistence in breast feeding even under such pain. But why you were against epidural?
Giving and taking gifts between spouses are part and parcel of a marriage. Can it be called payment for labour?
Hehe Arun, I think you’re a doctor that’s why you asked the question about epidural. I live in Hong Kong which is literally a mix of East and West. Here, the Chinese veer towards “the as much intervention in the birth as possible to make it easier for mum” perspective and we have one of the highest c-section rates in the world. On the other hand, the Western, particularly American perspective, natural natural natural. A lot of what I read preparing for the pregnancy was from the US. So even as my head said nothing wrong with epidural, the guilty-trip that every mother goes through kept saying ‘go natural go natural’. So I tried to be a hero and brave it out – my rationale was that if it was unbearable I would ask for it… unfortunately, beign a government hospital, when I asked for it, I couldn’t get one. Also, we were given a disclaimer form to sign which explained the risks of an epidural. When my husband read that I could see he was not too keen on it though he told me it was totally up to me. I vowed next time around I would have an epidural. But I ended up having a breech baby and c-section… have to say I was relieved.
I think in this case, it makes sense to spell out what the gift is for, Arun. What we go through is not just one of the regular things one goes through in one’s life. It is huge and as I have tried to show takes a physical and financial toll. I feel it needs special recognition from the other party and acknowledgement.
May be the most ‘natural’ way is to deliver ones baby in the forest with no medical care around…… -:)
Arun, there are women who are opting for this. Well, not the forest exactly, but at home. They believe that being in a hospital necessarily means medical interventions many of which are unnecessary.
I get their point somewhat – in many hospitals, we are forced to lie down and give birth on our backs, even though this is not the most comfortable position for many women. The reason we must lie down is because the fetal monitor must be attached… but why must it be attached at all times? Why intermittent monitoring in low risk cases? I get the feeling the monitoring all the time is so that nurses don’t have to keep coming into the room to check on you, and can do it remotely thus saving costs. I also have my objections to the incessant cervical exams during labour… for my first pregnancy these were more painful than pushing out the baby.
But well, I wanted to deliver in a hospital, because I liked to be close to the medical equipment in case it was needed so we make these compromises even though they are not the best for us or our babies.
As a doctor, you may have a different perspective.
Yes at home and cut the cord with the kitchen knife……
More natural if you go back to forest and cut the cord with a stone and use only natural herbs
No vaccinations or episiotomy …….. -:)
Science has moved forward a lot and each change in methods of delivery that took place from the ‘Natural’ forest delivery to current Instituitional delivery came into being after a long laborious process of experiments to ensure first the safety of mother and
child and then the comfort.
I guess all this is a swing-back from the current situation in the West and also here in Hong Kong where the c-section rate is very high. In Hong Kong, mums are quite forcefully urged into c-sections by their doctors, even when there is nothing to indicate the need for it, and many believe that a baby will get less air if they deliver naturally. Similarly, the c-sec rate in the US is high – one reason being cited is the insurance system in the States where doctors are so scared of being sued, they will advocate a c-sec at the first sign of trouble.
I guess a balance between both the ‘natural’ and the ‘medical intervention’ is best… striking that balance can be confusing for the mum though.
Bride,
The point I was trying to say is there no thing that can be called ‘ natural delivery’ . Human civilisation continue to evolve better methods of delivery through scientific experimentation. We cannot go back to stone ages.
Reason for increase in CS can be both scientific and economic. Society should try to reduce economic causes for CS -:)
Get your point Arun. Maybe ‘natural’ delivery is a misnomer and we should abolish this term to allow ourselves to think clearly about the issue.
But regardless of terminology, I think even scientifically there is research to show the benefits of reduced medical intervention during childbirth.
For example, with epidural, I was given a sheet with information about the risks and asked to sign a disclaimer. I cant remember what the risks were but I had already read up on it before I went into labour. Agreed they are small but they exist and some women might rather try controlled breathing/gas etc. for pain relief and avoid even those risks. In my case, i was also a little freaked out at the idea of an injection to my spine. And I have to say, when the spinal block was administered during my c-section I had to fight to stay calm as the sensation went out of my legs.
Yes… Experiments continue and guidelines for safe delivery changes over time. Each and every procedure carries risk. Only a cost/benefit analysis with the help of ur Dr can give u an answer whether to use a method. When Insurance is a big player the consent form becomes bigger and terrorising of patients with rare side effects occur. -:)
“When Insurance is a big player the consent form becomes bigger and terrorising of patients with rare side effects occur.” This is true. If I had to do it again, I would get the epidural. Luckily I don’t
Tight Hugs Bride for sharing this post.
The issue of bearing children, going through a rough (life-taking) pregnancy and child birth and the never ending complications is something I have seen from very close and the complications are still a horror of my daily life.
All I want to say is, for people who are calling your point of view and perspective as transaction in marriage and other adjectives, I want to ask them what would they call a husband who says ” it’s no big deal. all women do it. You went through all this because you wanted a baby, if you were being so uncomfortable you could have given up at any point.”
No prizes for guessing such a husband earned a divorce from me.
P.S.- Sorry for going off the tangent.
I think a lot of people are saying that with the “well get a surrogate or adopt” line of argument. It’s a very all-or-nothing stance which somehow is seen as more humane than ‘can i have something to sweeten this deal’.
I can totally see myself doing this. Personally, if it was only up to me, I would adopt; though increasingly, I am beginning to feel I don’t want any children at all, adopted or biological. So if I ever have a biological child in the future, it will only be because my husband is keen to have one – in which case, I would definitely expect something from him as a token of thanks, and won’t hesitate to ask for it. In my case, it might be naming rights, rather than cash or jewellery.
Obviously, it will work differently for every couple. But I am the kind of person who says “Alright, if you take me to icecream at midnight tonight, I will accompany you to that action movie you’re so keen on seeing tomorrow”. My husband used to find my ‘balance sheet’ approach very disturbing, but he’s understood this is how I tend to view things, and has made his peace (more or less) with it. It doesn’t mean that we don’t do things for each other out of love, without expecting anything else in return – we do that most of the time, but sometimes, my ‘balance sheet’ approach actually helps us to make our marriage fairer, and is an effective tool for dealing with thorny issues.
““Alright, if you take me to icecream at midnight tonight, I will accompany you to that action movie you’re so keen on seeing tomorrow” Ramya, I think in every marriage people do this except that they are not conscious of it and don’t voice it. You would love this book Spousonmics which takes an economists unsentimental view of marriage. And yet, there is lots of fuzzy warm stuff there too. Who says we can’t be fair and fuzzy too?
I have posted in IHM’s blog too: Pasting it here:
Most of the commenters here are already mothers, who have either gone through a normal birth or through a C-section. So, first of all, the “you won’t understand” angle is ruled out.
I understand. It was a painful process, and even more so, if you also had to undergo Post-Partum depression (Mine lasted for 6 months).I kept whining to my husband every hour for these 6 months that “he doesnt have to go through what I am going through” or “My career is over”. To his credit, he just listened quietly, took care of the baby at nights, left for work early morning without packed lunch , came back early to take care of the kid, and ordered food for both of us. I don’t know how he managed while I wallowed in self-pity.
Post-Partum depression and self-pity for a few months is fine. If you are still whining about “Only I can go through the pain of labour and breastfeeding”, a therapist may help. I do mean it seriously. Its not healthy to feel sorry for yourself all the time.
Before creating a child, I am sure your husband didn’t say – “You take this, I will pay in kind”. He bechara had no option but to watch you writhe in pain during labour. He also seems like a loving husband, which is the paramount (and not the “least” one can do. All of us happily married should respect the fact that good men are very rare). You are not a homemaker either – so you can afford the gold and the diamonds. So, why would you ask your husband to “buy” it for you?
Out of plain curiosity, did you tell the husband he will have to pay in gold before getting pregnant for the second time? Do you fix prices of each child or labour before its birth, or like you mentioned, you just spend what you saved (the public-private hospital price difference).
I am not judging you as a mother at all – the two points are totally independant of each other – you asking for gold for your pains, and your being compassionate towards your child. So, please don’t get me wrong. The mothers who fail to understand you have already gotten over the pain and focussed on being happy and independant, instead of asking for payback.
The terms you use to describe your Post Partum depression such as “whining” make it seem like you feel guilty for it and profoundly grateful that your husband backed you up. The way your husband behaved was right and proper. He managed because he was not going to enormous physical and emotional and hormonal changes himself. He was playing a supporting role.
I am not still whining. I am only stating facts, and frankly this is an edited version of what I went through, which I’m sure you know since you went through it yourself. That millions of women go through and have gone through it, some under worse conditions and with less supportive spouses, will not make me downplay the enormity of it all.
I will not be grateful to my husband for being a good man just because apparently they are rare.
Regarding the financial aspect of it, my views are in response to Broom’s comment.
I did not have a specific discussion on payment before my second child but given that I expected it for the first one, it would be understood for the second.
What makes you think I’m not happy? I’m more than happy. I have moved on and feeling like I got an okay deal is helpful.
PS: Sorry if I can across as abrupt. I’m getting more comments on this than I want to handle. I appreciate that you are able to separate the two issues – labour and motherhood.
Okay, enough of this mental hopping from one side to another.
I need to take a stand.
Sorry, it’s final. After considering everything put forth so far, I have concluded that I don’t agree with you.
I shudder to think of how I would have responded if 38 years ago my wife had told me
“If you want me to bear your children, Pay Up!”
I would have reconciled to being a childless couple.
The thought of “buying” my wife’s cooperation to become a parent is simply indigestible.
If this condition had been put to me before my marriage I would not have married her.
No, I am not being insensitive or unsympathetic to women.
I fully agree nature has been cruel and unfair to women biologically.
Only God (if you believe in Him) or philosophers or Spiritual Gurus can answer why that is so.
Some males like me sympathise with women but we are helpless in the matter.
We did not ask the Creator for this biological advantage.
If there was a way we could share labour pains many of us, including me, would volunteer.
Unfortunately that is ruled out. Nowadays many husbands show their concern and empathy by volunteering to be present by their wive’s sides during childbirth. During my time it was socially disapproved and I could not do it even if I had wanted to.
I agree with all who stated that if the inconveniences of pregnancy, pangs of labour during childbirth, the stresses and strains the mother undergoes during post delivery care of the baby like breastfeeding, and the compromises a woman needs to make on her career, creature comforts etc are unacceptable to a particular woman, then she can opt out of motherhood and I would not hold that against her. It would however be desirable if she gets her husband’s consent on this or at least tell him before marriage.
If she still craves for a child but is not prepared for the above, there are options like adoption, surrogacy etc.
A man should not have to buy his wife’s cooperation for becoming a parent.
Nor should he be expected to “off set” the female disadvantage. He did not have a hand in creating this disadvantage and he is helpless to do anything about it.
However I fully support reasonable demands. For instance:
The wife must be given the power to decide when to have her child and the number of children and the spacing.
The wife can be given rights to choose the names of the baby.
She can be given the right to choose where she wishes to deliver the baby (the town, and the hospital/nursing home) and also the right to choose her gynec if she is comfortable with a particular gynec. The husband and his family should not impose any of these decisions on her. A wife must be allowed to spend as much time as she pleases at her parent’s place after the delivery and even invite her parents over to live with her to help her during the period after the pregnancy, till she can manage on her own. The husband should have no issues with this.
If demanding compensation from a husband for going through childbirth is justified, then you could also justify several other absurd demands which will shake the foundations of our family system.
What if the husband is handsome, fair, rich, belongs to a high caste or forward race, is moneyed, intelligent, has blue eyes and is in excellent health. In short a man whose sperm would be in demand at sperm banks.
Would such a husband be justified in seeking compensation for offering his sperm to his own wife? If his wife is not an independent earner, would he be justified in asking his in laws to pay up?
Grand parents often yearn for grand kids and bring pressure on couples to have kids early.
Would it be okay for a couple to tell the Grand parents,
“We are not interested in kids yet. If you are eager to see your grandkids before you croak, we will oblige you, but are you prepared to pay for the privilege?”
Can parents tell their children after they grow up to pay the parents for their upbringing? Can grown up children ask their aged and infirm parents to pay if they wish to be properly taken care of?
The list can go on.
A marriage is a sacred union. It would be great if a man buys gold and diamonds for his wife if he can afford it. Let him do so unconditionally out of love for his wife. Not as a price for his wife’s consent to bear his children and not for off setting biological disadvantages that women have unfortunately been stuck with.
I apologise if this offends some of you. I don’t mean any offense.
I congratulate you on raising a topic worthy of discussion and debate.
I had never thought of this question before.
Tailpiece:
My wife does not read all these blogs. I sometimes tell her about what’s hot at IHM’s and other blogs. I told her about this discussion. I asked her. Would you have wanted me to buy you diamonds as a price for your motherhood? Her answer : “No, I would be willing to offer you all the diamonds and jewellery that my parents gave me if you could go through this experience and spared me.”
Regards
GV
Thanks for your comment GV. I have a feeling we will continue to disagree on this but let me respond to a few of your points:
“If you want me to bear your children, Pay Up!”
Rest assured that I did not word it as such. Well, they were in the throes of labour but later, when I discussed it all with my husband is was more like “I would really appreciate it if you would buy me something for all I went through”.
It’s interesting – you are okay with compensation like the wife choosing the name exclusively but not anything monetary. Why is money so abhorrent?
I’m also amazed that people think that if one would like a little compensation at the end of hard labour then one should just eschew the whole process and adopt instead. The logic escapes me.
I have to think about your sperm bank question. As for the others:
“We are not interested in kids yet. If you are eager to see your grandkids before you croak, we will oblige you, but are you prepared to pay for the privilege?” I have heard of couples who say they will only oblige if the grandparents look after the kids. I have also heard of women who say this to their husbands and vice versa when one is not that keen on children.
“Can parents tell their children after they grow up to pay the parents for their upbringing?” No because when you have a child you undertake a responsibility to provide a certain amount of care. The child did not ask to be born.
“Can grown up children ask their aged and infirm parents to pay if they wish to be properly taken care of?” If the children cannot afford the expenses and the parents can, I think it’s ok to ask them to contribute financially to the care.
I agree with your wifes answer. Since this cannot be, I have chosen to accept the reverse.
There is a reason why money is an abhorrent topic in family relationships. If you look at the capitalistic societies (eg USA), driven purely by monetary profits, you can see how it has eaten into the moral fabric of the society. If you extend this to family relationships, I feel it will undoubtedly devalue relationships and decisions taken as a family.
Let me extend GV’s questions. If one of you fall ill, and the other steps up to compensate in whatever way, would you pay up for the services? A child needing extra care, (of course, you’re asking for payment from the spouse ONLY) for the extra toll it took on you. Extended family and aging parents, the list goes on….
There is only one asset I consider as “mine”, the jewellery that my parents gifted me for my wedding. My husband is least interested in what I do with it, and rightly so. (I used it to gift my sister jewelry during her wedding, much more than what we gave at his brother’s wedding). However, if the need arises, I will have no hesitation selling it off and converting it to a “joint” investment, and HE knows it.
You mentioned that your husband might have been squeamish at the idea of payment in money, so you chose jewelry instead. Did you try finding out from him why so? His answer might be exactly what the rest of us feel and have been saying!
The problem is, as I read in someone else’s comments, marriage is a lifelong commitment, and you have to trust that it will even out more or less as time passes. Else, you will be stuck forever in an accounting sheet, that will always look unbalanced.
Deeps, I’m not so sure it will “undoubtedly devalue relationships and decisions taken as a family”. I am not arguing for everything in a relationship to be valued in monetary terms. But I believe for some things it would be useful to gain clarity. A case in point would be the ‘work’ of homemakers. Until it was discussed in economic terms, it was largely taken for granted or patronised but not really compensated for so that homemakers were left high and dry if the marriage dissolved. I believe that this is another area that would benefit from being viewed in economic terms.
I will not go into your questions about payment for children, elderly parents etc. as i replied to GVs comment. With regard to one of us falling ill, I think the likelihood is that either of us could fall ill so it evens out.
How finances are divided in a marriage is an interesting topic and has some bearing on this issue I guess. My views on it are in my reply to Broom’s comment.
Yes, my husband’s response would be similar to many of your’s if he allowed himself to dwell on it. He doesn’t dwell though. He acts on instinct – so his instinct would probably be something akin to the underlying logic is fair but I would like it trounced i some palatable terms, however illogical that may be, and thus it was okay with him.
I think I was the one who said that most things do even out in the end in a good modern marriage. But I believe this is one thing that does not even out, it is too big. I also believe that staying at home and looking after the kids rarely evens out unless some conscious effort is made to even it out on the part of the one not staying at home.
“A case in point would be the ‘work’ of homemakers. Until it was discussed in economic terms, it was largely taken for granted or patronised but not really compensated for so that homemakers were left high and dry if the marriage dissolved.” :
But the fundamental difference between housework and childbirth is that one is imposed upon women by society and thus remediable by being quantified and compensated for and the other is a physical constraint that nature has imposed and whether one likes it or not has to be accepted and thus cannot be quantified and compensated.
Also as you yourself stated compensation against household work is only awarded at the time of dissolution of a conjugal relationship so any question of compensation whilst a relationship is healthy doesn’t and shouldn’t arise.
Housework need not be imposed by society. It can be a choice but that doesn’t mean it need not be compensated. In my opinion, it ideally should be.
Compensation for housework only at the end of a marriage is a far from ideal scenario because it gets very unpleasant. The ideal scenario is to discuss how it is valued and compensated for when it is undertaken. I do not think this is unhealthy at all. When one partner quits work and stays at home, it is often discussed how the finances will be handled which is a good idea I think.
Agree that housework need not be imposed but unfortunately the fact remains that in most societies it is. Indeed housework may not be a gender based imposition but a choice and men/women may voluntarily choose to be homemakers and be compensated by their spouses for making that choice. HOWEVER bearing a child is NOT a gender neutral ‘choice’ that any party can opt for and thus expect the other party to compensate for the same.
Swarup, I agree that that if a couple wants to biologically bear their own child then the most ideal choice is for the woman to carry the baby etc. I do not agree that this means it should not be compensated. In fact, the fact that it is not a choice could be greater grounds for compensation.
Shall we agree to disagree on this?
Compensation for what is a biological necessity? So that would mean that when men cannot adequately compensate their wives (I could hardly afford diamonds for my wife even if she contributes towards them as-well) they stand being ineligible to be fathers! And that is a preposterous proposition that I’ll never concede to. So maybe we should call this off and call it a day?
Swarup, I’m sure most women would not ask for anything that would break their husband’s back. The actual cost of it would probably be too huge to be quantified anyway. To some extent, it will always be a token.
“When Insurance is a big player the consent form becomes bigger and terrorising of patients with rare side effects occur.” That is what I meant when I said agree to disagree.
GV, I’ve been thinking about your question on the sperm donor husband. I am one of those who is open to all manner of absurd discussions in a marriage. Thus, if my husband brought up this prospect I would not be immediately offended. However, I would not entertain it because:
1. The racist assumption inherent in it doesn’t make sense to me. It is scientifically proven that only women can give birth but it is not that blonde, blue eyed men are superior in any way.
2. I do not advocate keeping a tab, so to speak, for every little task performed in a marriage. Only the huge ones that come at a big financial, physical cost. Maybe the man could argue that the loss of this one cup of sperm is a big financial setback. But its hardly a physical setback to produce a cup of sperm so it won’t hold for me for justification for quantification in financial terms.
That said, there are dealbreakers in every modern marriage and some are illogical. If my husband refused to pay me it would NOT be a dealbreaker. I would be upset a bit I guess just as my husband is upset at some of the things he has had to give into for (but we don’t keep reminding each other of these things either). I am of course pleased that he saw my point of view in this matter.
I’ve been following this discussion with fascination at both your blog and at IHM’s blog. It looks like a topic that has really divided people strongly down the line. I’m re-posting my comment from IHMs blog here:
I think a lot of people are looking at this as if the Bride said “Pay up or else I won’t have the child” or its equivalent. My reading was that she was saying “We both wanted the child and are happy to have the child, but I am the only who paid these huge physical, emotional and financial costs for it. Maybe if you could share these costs with me, you would be willing to, but you can’t. So instead, why don’t you buy me something nice?”.
There’s this couple I know who were living abroad – both husband and wife wanted to have a baby. The wife wanted to move to India while the husband wanted to stay put in the US. So the wife said that if they had a baby, she expected them to come back to India, and they did. I know of someone who insisted she have naming rights over the baby because she went through all the labour and pain, and she got the naming rights. So why is all of this okay, but its awful if its money/gold/diamonds/paintings?
Every couple, including couples who love and trust each other highly, negotiate in their daily lives. You do the cooking, and I will do the cleaning. You pick up our son from the school today, and I will drop our daughter at swimming class tomorrow. You visit my parents for this festival, and I will visit yours for the next. It’s just that we don’t usually hear this one “You deliver our baby safely and I will buy you a solitaire”. But I don’t understand why that’s any worse than all the other negotiations and shared responsibilities. And I definitely don’t see why that is an indictment of the relationship the spouses share with each other or their child.
Thank you Ramya. You articulated it so succinctly. I guess people seem to dislike any talk of money in relationships. I believe this can be counterproductive sometimes though I’m not an advocate of keeping a tab on every little thing either.
I might’ve commented here sometime, or maybe not, but i read your blog with great interest. Love the objectivity and clarity of your thought that comes across in your writing.
On the current topic, i really don’t know why this is being treated as so unusual, because i have always known this as a social custom that the husband gifts something material (and expensive depending on affordability) to the wife on the birth of their child. More often than not, i’ve seen gold / diamonds as being the preferred gifts. Even the parents-in-law gift something valuable to the new mother as a social custom which is quite rampant in a lot of communities. I’m quite sure a lot of old bollywood movies will attest to the gifts the wife receives from the husband for bearing their child. It is also not unusual in such a custom, for the gift to be something that the wife asked for. When i conceived, i would randomly come up with gift ideas for my husband, one of them was a particular bike. Now since he finds bikes extremely unsafe, he bought me a car which i loved (one that we could afford), even while we’re still quite a few weeks away from the due date. I’m really wondering how nobody else has heard of this custom.
Another point that i wanted to write about was the biological disadvantage that women are at. Sometime back i was having a discussion with a friend of mine, who did not want to have a baby for another 4 years. This was as per her plans for her life. Her husband really really wants a kid, but she was not ready to budge. She argued that she is the one who has to go through the pregnancy and delivery and everything related to it, so she should have the sole decision power. I said that this was almost like holding the husband for a ransom, and he is at a biological disadvantage of not being able to take this up even after wanting it so much. It is very easy to imagine this to be sorted out between the two of them with a practical transactional approach, and that would work better than invoking any other kind of reasoning.
Ferret, I think part of the problem is that many are so against these customs that it’s hard to wrap one’s head around the idea that a woman might actually demand it, complicated by the fact that in my case I demanded it in the form of jewellery, the very thing feminists have always been saying is pointless etc.
I believe while rationale of both is the same the crucial difference in it being a negotiated transaction between me and my husband is that I have a say in the value and the capacity to ensure that it is something meaningful. The terms and conditions as are clearer than if it goes under the umbrella of gift. Thus, I’m not entirely for it becoming a tradition as compensation in the form of jewellery might not work for everyone.
I also think the relative biological disadvantages are an interesting point. They come up in the question of abortion also.
I had this discussion with a friend where I posited that being my body I should have a right to say no to children if I didn’t want them. One of the points she made was that if I had clearly stated this before marriage, that would be one thing but having not done so and given my husband’s eagerness for children, would i be ok with him having a child with someone else then? It was something to think about.
Yes, I think a clearheaded, non-sentimental settlement in cases like these where the partner that does not want to bear the biological brunt is compensated in some way to sweeten the deal would go a long way in resolving these issues.
I am in total agreement with you on this. And may I please also congratulate you for keeping your cool through this discussion. I found myself getting riled up over a couple of comments here, when reading this. It’s easy to judge people and think that their ideas are bizarre, but it’s hard to see the layers to a discussion like this from an objective standpoint.
Bringing some more fodder for thought, I wonder whether I would have been less worried about my mom today, if she had asked to be compensated for all her work like this. I guess, yes. Because the unfortunate truth is this: She works the hardest in our family of four, and it has always been so, but if I were to mark out individual assets and finances, she owns the least of it. Lesser than two of her children, who have both been working for less than 5 years. How does that sound? This is not to say that if she needs something, any of us will hold her back but I find that even her having to ask while we can go about swiping cards anywhere anytime is in a way, unfair and cruel.
Since people have anticipated how weighing relationships in economic terms could cause them to sour, I’d like to also point out a few good things it might do:
1. Women may feel more comfortable walking out of marriages that are not working out, and not have to stay on just for the sake of the child’s upbringing. It may be a far-fetched suggestion, but a systematic compensation for all of the work a woman does, can enable this.
2. Men who don’t feel obliged to share housework may begin to see the point in doing so, to strike a good deal economically
3. It can make up for the sense of loss of independence that can come with just having lost a job. All of us, men and women, are well-aware that it’s not easy to control one’s personal expenses immediately after getting out of a job.
4. It eases the stress of having to request for money for small expenses regularly which, although unreasonable in equal marriages, the woman in question ends up feeling, if she had been working for a long time before. [I say this from personal experience].
5. It makes a statement to the husband’s family that you value your wife’s contribution to the family, even though it is “natural” and “understood”.
Hi Neha, I think people have been more or less respectful in their comments here which I appreciate too. It is why I have chosen to only engage in a discussion here.
Yes, I can say the same for my mother. Being in that position to have to ask is not easy and why should they be? It is why my mom kind of urged me and my sis to continuing working. It never occurred to her that a person could negotiate payment for keeping house.
Many people are accepting of the idea that homemakers should be compensated but balk at the idea of childbirth/breastfeeding being compensated. The reason given is that the husband physically cannot undertake it. While i do recognise that and so I am not sitting here grudging my husband his biological failings, I still don’t see the harm in being compensated to the loss of my finances and my body just as a homemaker is. If homemakers being compensated doesn’t result in the breakdown of marriage why would this?
Wow that was really hard-hitting and thought provoking! Appreciate your views, not sure how far I can relate to them though.
Frankly, I have never thought along the lines of getting compensated by my husband for giving birth to our child. Maybe because I had a very easy pregnancy. The labour lasted for just about 20 minutes..she was out in a jiffy!
It was the period that ran upto my pregnancy that was unnerving, painful and terribly stressful. The period in which we both had to undergo tests, check in and out of umpteen clinics, so the heart-burns and anxieties were felt by both of us. In fact there were days when I had to go through all those invasive tests and treatments because my test-results used to be unfavourable. So does it mean then that my husband should expect some kind of pay-back from me for all the expenses incurred?
Anyhow when I did get finally get pregnant one can only imagine how happy I was. Yes the 1st trimester was nausea and aversion-ridden but I didnt mind it one bit, really! So thrilled was I that I enjoyed my entire term of pregnency, all the attention and gifts being showered on me. And the husband..he was just as excited and thrilled. Yes there were days when I used to be over come by emotions, by the enormity of having a baby to take care of in the coming days, but those emotional upheavals were felt as much by the husband too. Agreed he couldnt understand the exact feelings of a woman carrying a baby inside her for the obvious reason that he didnt/couldnt carry a baby inside him, but he did acknowledge that carrying a baby and giving birth to her is no mean feat, and did all that he could to make my pregnancy and our experience as smooth as possible.
Even after the baby was born he has been just as much a hands on parent, bathing the child, waking up in the middle of the night to rock his child to sleep, cleaning her bum, feeding her( from the 4th month when she started semi-solids), et al.
And he acknowledges that just because he works and earns money while I stay at home with our child doesnt make either of us any more or less a devoted parent than the other. We both do. At the end of the day both of us work towards the same goal- our child and her upbringing. Its this mutual acknowledgement that is important to me.
Gosh have ranted way too much, dont know if I have made any sense in those words even!
Thanks for raising such a relevant topic.
Deeps, your point about the infertility treatment (I presume that’s what you meant) made me think. I believe that even if it is the woman whose results are unfavourable, it is ultimately the woman who bears the brunt of the invasive tests and treatments as you experienced. I never quite understood the sheer physical toll of infertility treatment until I watched Guilliana and Bill. Anyway, the financial costs are one thing, it is the physical cost that is far far greater – like what you must have gone through – and so no I dont believe you should be paying back your husband.
As I said, if you felt pregnancy and childbirth were a breeze then yay, that’s really the ideal scenario. But for many women it isn’t. And I think we need to think about it – this period in which we are constrained by biology.