V and I are in the throes of an on-and-off argument on whether to move back to India (at some point) or not. He wants to, me not so much.
His reasons, as I understand them, are partly self-centred – he does not want to keep working in the banking industry forever, with children the stress of keeping them in school here would require him to keep striving. And partly to do with what he claims to be the welfare of the children – a greater sense of belonging, growing up surrounded by family etc.
My reasons for not wanting to move are more practical – we have a relatively stress-free life here, leaving us with time to enjoy each other, our children and life. I can earn more money here with less effort than I would in India. Now that I have a child and another on the way I value safety even more. Lingering somewhere at the back of my mind is the thought that having been presented with the choice of living in a safe city, if I moved back to India and something violent happened to my children, I would never forgive V or myself.
Yes, the big thing we give up on living abroad is extended family. I have begun to wonder, though, whether the wonders of extended family are worth the stress that the immediate family would be under living in India, a stress that you will only be aware of if you have lived outside India and moved back.
And then there’s belonging. The one thing that niggles me about Hong Kong is the inability to belong. Racially, one is an outsider, and not an outsider from the preferred white-skinned race. One will always face a subtle racial tension and this is a barrier that cannot be really overcome, just ignored. One way of integrating is linguistically; one of the reasons expat remain always slightly removed from Chinese society is the inability to speak Cantonese, a difficult but not impossible language to learn.
The irony is that I don’t speak any Indian language comfortably either. Linguistically, I am as much an outsider in India as I am in Hong Kong. I have always contended that I belong in India because I have roots there, I am ethnically Indian, I have the whole background of India in my bones.
But do I? I have also always felt a certain amount of foreignness even while I was in India and adult enough to be aware of it. Part of it is because Goan culture, especially the lifestyle of Goans outside Goa, is so Westernised. I grew up with so many Western cultural references. Part of that is speaking only English and a difficulty picking up Indian languages. With English as one’s mother tongue, always a source of some confusion, and only the barest bones of Hindi available, one is always slightly cut off from the masses on the street. And being from a minority religion, once one steps out of the world of Christian educational institutions, puts one in an increasingly insecure space politically; the slight fear that one of these days the communalists might come knocking at your door.
I have never been detached from the street, which I consider to be the ‘real’ of any place, but if I am honest, I never quite fit in on the street in India. My inability to converse in the language of the street excludes me. I will always be a little bit the outsider. In Hyderabad, I was actually asked which country I was from and told that I looked like a foreigner, even when dressed in a salwar kameez. I probably had more in common with expat Indians than Indians in India.
And that brings me to my current epiphany. Sometimes it’s easier to be a foreigner in a foreign land than a foreigner in your homeland.
(Or maybe all this is just to rationalise my fear of rocking the boat.)
The Bride said:
From MinCat: yes i totally agree. i've been saying for years that while i LOVE india i would rather live abroad because i do not fit here and id ather not fit where i'm not expected to than not fit where i should.
R's Mom said:
In no way can I respond to this post because I am totally Indian..in all ways, looks, languages, always been here..but when I moved from Baroda (a small city) to Mumbai it took me a long time to get used to it..of course language was never a problem and it was not like its outside India..but the travelling, the bindaas attitude and (I am ashamed to admit this!) even the clothes the girls wore here…everything was like a new thing…I could have as well shifted outside India..but now…I am a total Mumbaikar..and honestly moving back to Baroda may be tough 🙂 and oh yes…I do have a total sense of belonging here 🙂
RS said:
Im not sure about the safety part of the arguement – isnt that an issue everywhere? You dont really have to move back and stay with the immediate family. I see people living in gated communities which are closer to work places which provide great safety and opportunities to the kids too.Infact I've been telling hubby that we should move into one such place where our travel time is negligible and we also have all the amenities and the safety for the child – just a thought…
Tabula Rasa said:
on the money.life is just so safe and stress-free here that it seems like going back would mean a very poor trade-off indeed. we used to have this discussion when we lived in the US, but ever since we moved to HK it's been taken off the burner. i guess it helps that my extended family is really very small, and my wife doesn't relate to most of hers. so our long-term future remains unresolved while we enjoy a life that's as good as we can ask for right now.
The Bride said:
@MinCat what you said. So then reasons for moving back, for me, have to be other than 'belonging'. @R's Mom so what you're saying is that eventually one starts to belong. True to some extent… but people like MinCat and me, we grew up in the same city for 25-odd years and still felt a little like outsiders. Maybe we are just more sensitive about that slight sense of alienation also. Or maybe we are just not destined to belong completely there.@RS Hehe I was wondering who would pick up on that. Actually, that is not at the forefront of my reasons-for-not-returning but it's something I think about occasionally. I know I'm going to sound firangi here but articles like this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/10/india-howrah-kolkata-kidnap) haunt me now. Particularly this statistic: "Insurers rank India as the fifth most dangerous country in the world for kidnapping." It is not something I can wave away like I would have in India because now I have a choice. I cannot speak for other places but Hong Kong is, I would say, one of the safest places on earth. You know cases like that Reuben Fernandes one…they are not uncommon in India; maybe the difference is that the boys died but getting into a fight and the local goondagiris coming is not unusual. And let's not even get into safety for women. You can live in a gated community but you cannot keep India out nor would I expect to if I moved back. If my kids went out partying at night I would always be afraid till they came home because "anything can happen" more in India than at least Hong Kong. @TR I wish V would see your point.
Bhagwad Jal Park said:
I share some characteristics with you. My mother tongue is english as well and I understand the disconnect with the "street" that you talk about. And back in India I stay in Chennai, where Tamil rules!But strangely, I never really feel out of place on Indian streets. Just…a different person. New to others perhaps but completely unapologetic about what I am, but I don't really give a shit either.In the US though I always feel a bit like an outsider. Not because of the people, but because the environment is so alien. Cars everywhere – no walking. No dogs on the road, the weather can get really cold, I hate flying, I dislike the TV ads etc…Nothing virulent, but not something I'm 100% at home with if you know what I mean.
theerailivedin said:
I would totally relate to your feelings around a year back for I too felt comfortable in the foreign land.Though the twist in the events over the year has now forced me to understand the hidden aspects of my love for India. The benefits of being around the family came to fore in a shocking way after my marriage boat hit the rocks.The support and help that I needed at that kind of a difficult hour with a new born baby to take care of,I think it would have been almost impossible to manage in a foreign land.But I totally agree with the safe feeling foreign lands offer despite the constant reminder from the natives that we are 'second grade citizens' no matter what we do.
The Bride said:
@bhagwad I'm surprised people identify with what I am saying. As I told MinCat this morning I expected people to think I am India-bashing, which is totally not my intention. I definitely feel less alien in India than in HK. But the degree of difference in how alienated I feel is actually not that much. It also depends on where you are; it's not a simple India-vs-abroad thing. I am more alien in some places in India than I am in others. HK is very like Bombay in many ways – except it's full of Chinese people and systems actually work – and enough foreigners to make you unselfconscious. So I fit in fairly well. Or at least, as MinCat said, it's easier to not fit in than to not fit in India. @era agree it totally depends on the individual situation. For example, my sis lives in the US and if I was her, I would have come running back to India when I had a baby. I don't know how she manages without household help. Ultimately, there might be many factors that determine whether to return to India or not – it's just hit me that 'belonging' may not be one of them. About the 'safe' feeling… I told V the other day, yeah we go on about being first class citizens in our own country but weigh that up against not having to worry about violence or some creep feeling you up in the street.
RS said:
Again – I dont agree with you…safety of Coming home late night is an issue no matter where you are. Even in the US there are areas in every city tht you are warned against. Downtown areas where robbery happens in broad day-light – there IS no such place that you can say is 100% safe. Ofcourse, you will need to be on guard for your child no matter which country which city you are in… Having said that – Im not giving excuses to the pathetic non-reaction of the so-called responsible authorities to the current crimes in India…Schooling and Money are as good here as anywhere else and more than anything I feel that there is a comfort factor in knowing that there are people around me who are willing to help during emergency where as anywhere else I wont have that cushion effect to fall back on… -thats personally speaking…
The Bride said:
RS, I cannot speak for the US. I can only speak for HK which is the place I am choosing between. Coming home at night is not an issue at all. It is like coming home in the day only the frequency of the trains are less. I have come home alone at night drunk in the skimpiest possible clothes way across town in public transport and V has not given a thought to my safety.. and vice versa. You have to live it to believe it. Yes, safety cannot be 100 per cent guaranteed. But there are odds and the odds in Hong Kong are way way better than in India. Occasionally, there will be mad man running down the street stabbing people. This is a rare rare occurrence. And when something like this happens the the police, ambulance etc. kick into action within minutes. Yes, it nice to have people to rely on in emergencies; it is even nicer to have those people and to have a system that will kick into place if they happen to not be around. Money – it depends on your profession and job profile I guess. What differs is also the amount of work you put in for the same amount of money. V would never go back to working in banking in India if he could help it. Even in the same multinational bank, the HR policies and the way things run (in terms of being expected to stay and work late for example.) are different. But ultimately, this post was about whether 'belonging' is a factor I should be counting in, and this is again specific to me though it seems others share this feeling. The other factors are debatable and individual-specific.
MinCat said:
oh, and also, what on earth makes you think schooling in india is cheap?? it's wildly expensive! and the schools are getting more and more dangerous, and by that i mean knives and guns.
The Bride said:
@MinCat yay blogger let you comment. Was the school comment for me? Well, from what we've found out English-medium schooling in India is cheaper than in HK because English-medium schooling in HK is a limited offering, so very competitive and getting increasingly expensive. However, with our current jobs, we can afford it. The problem is if one of us, particularly V, does not have that job, then meeting the school fees would be a challenge.
Poet Mamma said:
From someone who has been there and done that – if the decision to relocate ANYWHERE is driven by objective parameters – like a better paying job, growth in career, better schooling for kids, proximity to parents/family and some such, then the transition is smoother and you will find ways around all these other things that may seem a big deal. But just feeling of belonging, or returning to your roots in itself may not be a reason enough to justify the huge change that you will have to undergo. I have seen cases where such returns were not successful, and people made a U turn that strained them and the families both emotionally and financially.That said,a few thoughts:Safety – I agree with RS that you cannot really guarantee this anywhere in the world. I have always felt safe in India in general. And of course you have to take care to remain safe. Caution, due diligence is essential anywhere you go.Schooling – yes – there are many types of schools to suit your purse. ICSE, IB, CBSE and SSC – you can decide any board you want. But as for learning – there is no substitute for an experience. Its up to you to find ways and means and expose your children to enriching experiences (they may not always be entirely comfortable). For example, exposure to children begging at the traffic signal and the questions that follow is an opportunity to educate. A trip to the nearby orphanage/NGO to donate old used clothes is too. My 8 year old daughter gave away a Leapfrog toy from her childhood to the son of our istri-vala (ironing guy) on her own is a valuable learning.Social/Cultural life – It has become such a melting pot nowadays. Especially if you are going to be in one of the big cities. Assuming that you will be able to afford living in one of the gated communities where the demographic is similar to yours – cosmopolitan and "worldly". If you choose, you will find hundreds of ways to be a part of different groups and enjoy multicultural experiences. In our community atleast 80 to 90 % families must have returned from one of the first world countries. On halloween – there were 400 kids parading in costumes with the very desi "dhol tasha"! My kids have 10-15 friends playing outside every evening running around in open space, yelling to their heart's content. This is priceless. Plus most of the new complexes coming up will have all amenities like pool, gym and sports facilities. Language – English is very common. My children converse only in english with their friends because they dont speak the regional language. If you end up being in a place where most of the crowd is similar – then language will hardly be a barrier. You can pick up the local tongue atleast to the extent of being "Kam chalau"Domestic help – however much we fret and fume over this – fact is they are there! It may not be relevant to you since you have a help.So all said and done – if you really need to move, there will be ways to make it work and be happy. But the main question to answer is – WHY are you moving?Sorry for the loooong comment.
The Bride said:
@PoetMama Long comments are welcome and enjoyed, as are people who disagree with me :)You have a good point about reasons to move should be based on objective criteria and I don't think 'belonging' is one of those. Even family-bonding may not be though closeness to family may be. I will continue to disagree with you and RS on safety. Again, I am comparing safety in India vs safety in HK because these are my two choices. 100% safety is not possible but it's a difference between 80% safety in Hk (which is a conservative estimate…I actually think it's closer to 95%) and 50% or lower safety in India. I never felt perfectly safe in India. And I knew I was not. And that if something happened, I could not rely on the police. You know what's sad – even though I'm a foreigner in HK, and there may be an element of racism towards Indians in the police force in HK, I'd feel safer in a police station in HK than in India and I'd trust the courts in HK over one in India. I know for a fact that if I call the police emergency number in HK a team will arrive in 5 minutes. If it's a medical emergency an ambulance will arrive in 5 minutes, and the ambulance is free. We live in India without thinking about safety because if we thought about it, it would be too scary. I'm not worried about schooling or social life. I have a very lax attitude to schooling and I'm sure I'd have a better social life in India than in HK (however, having a social life doesn't list high on my list of priorities in general). Language – I know it's possible to live in India speaking only English, I am a living example of that fact. However, I hope that if we moved to India my kids would learn the local language and not end up like me, sadly monolingual. I think speaking only English isolates one from for want of a better term, the masses. I don't believe it's possible to just pick up the langauge though… since I was never able to just pick up Marathi even living in Bombay for 25 years. I think you need a lot of exposure to a langauge to 'pick up'. But again, language is not a factor in whether to move or not. Actually, I don't want to move. What would motivate to move:1. Can I save enough to retire in HK? On my current salary alone, no. Combined with V's salary, possibly yes, if we continue working like this for another 20 odd years. Then, what will it be like being old in HK? If I cannot imagine being old in HK, is it better to move sooner so that we're still young enough to adjust to India. Or can I give it another 10-20 years or so?2. My parents will not move out of India and that some time they will need care. Is it better to move now or will we, and our children, be able to adjust to the shift if we wait until the need really arises?Apart from those two, I'm on side of staying put. V's reasons, I've already described.
cricketfreak said:
I've lived in Malaysia nearly all my life and honestly I think I'd prefer to live there than in India. Safety, as you've said, is a huge factor-I just don't feel safe walking around alone in India. Plus I can't wear shorts. Or "tight" clothing. And there are always the restrictions on freedom-guys and girls can't hang out together unless you want gossip, neither can you have a boyfriend unless you want your name to be "tarnished". And the gossip-there's no getting away from it.Of course some of it is just because I come from Kerala, which is not really that modern. But honestly, I think I's much prefer to live here than in India.
dipali said:
I think that some of us have a sense of alienation wherever we live! For me, it was spending formative years in England and coming back to India with an accent that took years to go away. A few years in college were fairly okay, but we lived as outsiders in too many places to feel comfortable in a random interaction on the street. And now, as I grow older, I find that even in people that I have close bonds with, there are some huge differences in values, which add to my feeling of being a stranger in a strange world. That said, for me home is wherever my husband and I set up camp, park our books and music and artefacts…… With age and infirmity, my parents had no choice but to move to our home, which was probably far easier to do anywhere in India than anywhere abroad.
The Bride said:
@cricketfreak Where in India makes a big difference. The big cities are much more liberal – so walking around alone is not a problem, I used to wear shorts on the street in the part of Bombay I lived in. However, as a woman, one is always on the watch for harassment…again the amount varies depending on the city in question but I doubt there is any city in India that is immune to this kind of street harassment. The hanging out with boys/boyfriend things also differs depending on the city and kind of society you live in. I've noticed that some Indians outside India are more conservative than some Indians in India in this regard. When you mentioned Malaysia, it reminded me of Singapore. Places like Singapore which are well developed, safe but yet have a sizeable Indian population might be a good choice for people like me. @dipali thank you for your comment! You may have a point about some of us being slightly alienated where we are. Though, in that case, it would be better for people like us not to choose a location based on something as ephemeral as 'belonging'.)That said, though, I am more likely to belong to some places more than others. I feel an affinity and sense of comfort in big cities like HK and Bombay (maybe even Bangalore would do) that I don't in places like Hyderabad. But you are right – maybe there is nowhere I will completely belong. And your point about parents – that is one big reason why I would choose to move back.
snehal said:
Same dilemma we are at this point – we are in the UK, with a toddler and R2I ( Return 2 India – as I noticed is the net lingo) is surfacing very often in our discussions these days. And I see myself agreeing with you to a tee.. ( almost). Sigh! To R2I or not to R2I is the question!
The Bride said:
@snehal It really is a tough decision, especially when you're not really in favour of it. Good luck with your choice.